Of Great Disappointment and Despair

"Groagun" (groagun)
12/11/2015 at 13:14 • Filed to: None

In response to some of the comments made yesterday to my post here: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

First off, where did any of you get the idea that I was advocating for the death penalty for any of the GM executives involved? I made no such pronouncements. I did however, call for the death of GM the company itself and that I stand by.

“If you wanted to go after corporations that were threats, why not the banks who have caused global recessions several times in the last few decades, or a DOW Chemicals who purchased Union Carbide after Bhopal ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ), or any company that uses cancerous chemicals that place their workers at risk?” CB

Thankfully we do. Not enough as far as I’m concerned but at least we do. Do you not think we should?

“It’s one thing if someone actively designed an item to kill someone, or if they knew with high probability that death was likely, but I can’t fathom that’s the case” Jayhawk ‘Super Sanic’ Jake

I agree, sort of with Jake. I do not believe that anyone at GM designed the faulty ignition switch purposefully to kill: that quite frankly is just silly. The problem is however, in the automotive business design faults are regularly found during prototype and testing phases and corrected before production begins, usually.

In this case, the fault made it all the way not just to production, but installed within several models over several years. When a part, any part, causes the vehicle to cease electrical operation or shut down unexpectedly, the term used is usually, “catastrophic failure”.

That not only describes the condition or result of the fault but of the part or system itself. They knew this was a bad part and a “catastrophic failure” could or would happen. How can anyone justify that? How is this not negligent action?

The automobile business is more heavily regulated than any other on Earth. We all know the standards are higher than on any other consumer product. Even if you feel this isn’t worthy of legal action and jail time, I hope you at least feel it’s worth questioning their ethics, competency and general human decency.

I understand some of your arguments regarding the economic hardship it would cause you or your family if this turd of a company were to be shut down. I understand fully the overall economic impact if GM were to be put out of business. To be honest, I don’t care!

Take the time and read through all of the comments, there are about 50 of them. The overall message is that really there isn’t anything we can do and more importantly there isn’t anything we should do. GM is so important to the very fabric and well being of America that it simply would cease to exist if GM was no longer in business.

Yes I’m overstating things a tad for my benefit but you get the gist of what I’m saying. Where is it written and what part of the constitution or laws of the land can you point to that says GM must go on forever no matter what they do? Why do you feel that without GM or any other large corporation you can think of with a relatively long history, that America will suffer so greatly as to teeter on the edge of existence?

You may be right, GM being put out of business will help no one or anything. It certainly wont make Christmas any better for the families of the victims. But to say that well, it’s just too big to fail and it’s just a part of life is simply not good enough for me.

I’m not looking for a %100 safe world where everything is bubble wrapped and laden with warning stickers. I just want to know that even if “I’m an engineer. Vehicles are complicated, and every now and then we fuck up. We try to fix it, and GM probably should have done more to fix it, but if you really think there was intent to cause harm you’re delusional.” someone, government or not is looking out for mine and my families better interests and not letting engineering “fuck ups” like this ever make it to production. Thanks again Jake for the quote.

For those interested, here is a nice and simple time line of events as published by NPR of all people: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

DISCUSSION (25)

davedave1111 > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 13:22

I don’t think the ignition switch debacle is any reason to break up GM. On the other hand, it’s clear GM should have been broken up rather than bailed-out. It would have made so much more sense to create a new model for manufacturing cars. Companies sell things like transmissions, or airbags, to manufacturers. Why can’t GM sell platforms, engines, trim pieces, and so-on?

They could have sold off all the brands, and then GM could have become a provider of parts, designs, and so-on.

Party-vi > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 13:23

I think if any response were warranted from your post yesterday, it would be to those users commenting on your post, in that post.

CalzoneGolem > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 13:26

tl;dr

You’re still wrong.

TractorPillow > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 13:26

Is this post an attempt to call out those people? Get more attention?

If you want to argue with them why not do it to their posts from yesterday? That’s why there is a “reply” button.

Groagun > davedave1111
12/11/2015 at 13:33

That’s interesting.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 13:38

I understand fully the overall economic impact if GM were to be put out of business. To be honest, I don’t care!

Welp, there you go. You’re so dead set on shutting them down over what’s essentially (not to be rude to those families who lost loved ones) a drop in the bucket in terms of auto-related deaths you can’t even think of the serious economic hardships it’ll cause well over a quarter million innocent employees who had absolutely nothing to with the fiasco all around the world.

ttyymmnn > TractorPillow
12/11/2015 at 13:42

And a “dismiss” button, for that matter.

DoYouEvenShift > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 13:53

So should we expect a post about all the other car makers that have killed people? Cant wait.

Xyl0c41n3 > Party-vi
12/11/2015 at 14:12

But that’s no fun.

Party-vi > Xyl0c41n3
12/11/2015 at 14:15

Oppo is srsbzns. No fun. Only work!

CobraJoe > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 14:30

Let me tell you a little secret from the manufacturing side of things: Every single part of any system could have a catastrophic failure. You can test for the weaknesses in the system, but even the greatest minds can’t predict every single possible scenario, and even if you could, there are often problems that don’t show up until after 10 years of abuse, UV degredation, and corosion all team up to cause a failure.

As for the ignition switch situation itself, perhaps someone know that too much weight on the switch could eventually cause failure, but honestly, what should that limit be? Should anything be changed specifically for that? Perhaps the system was designed to prevent the air bags from going off without the key turned on simply to prevent the air bags from going off during transportation.

There are a million variables when it comes to creating a complicated machine via high volume production, and there’s nearly as many other people and processes involved, so it is highly unlikely that anyone actually knew the problem was going to fail catastrophically, especially in more than one completely freak scenario.

yamahog > davedave1111
12/11/2015 at 14:32

I don’t think that’s a very good idea, especially since a large portion of those components weren’t even broken up by brand as you seem to be alluding to. Frankly it would be a pricey nightmare integrating, validating, etc a whole platform from one OEM to another, can’t see much profit to be had that way. For parts, Delphi was already spun off and AC Delco, to a lesser degree.

Also designs aren’t exactly the thing OEMs would want to buy from a Tier 1 supplier/former OEM.

davedave1111 > yamahog
12/11/2015 at 15:17

“especially since a large portion of those components weren’t even broken up by brand as you seem to be alluding to”

I think you have that the wrong way up. That’s the whole point. They are not broken up by brand, they’re just generic parts that should be on sale to anyone who wants to buy them.

“Frankly it would be a pricey nightmare integrating, validating, etc a whole platform from one OEM to another, can’t see much profit to be had that way.”

That’s why we have these things called ‘standards’. And no, there wouldn’t be a great deal of profit in assembling standard components different ways. That’s a good thing.

“Also designs aren’t exactly the thing OEMs would want to buy from a Tier 1 supplier”

I meant designs for parts or subsystems rather than overall model designs, to be clear.

yamahog > davedave1111
12/11/2015 at 15:39

I’m saying that having parts that are not specific to the brands means that “selling off the brands” would be effectively useless in that regard. You’d just be selling off trademarks.

“Standards” do not mean that the different beams, plates, weld joints, etc in a GM platform will react energy in the same exact way as any other OEM’s, not to mention internal standards and best practices vary by company. You’d waste a similar amount of time and money buying and adapting and validating their platform as you would developing your own. So there’s no profit, no market, no business case. If you just wanted to kill a large chunk of the US auto industry, you could’ve said so outright ;)

davedave1111 > yamahog
12/11/2015 at 15:45

“You’d just be selling off trademarks.”

And a fair few other things besides.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intangibl…

““Standards” do not mean that the different beams, plates, weld joints, etc in a GM platform will react energy in the same exact way as any other OEM’s”

Huh?

“You’d waste a similar amount of time and money buying and adapting and validating their platform as you would developing your own.”

And that argument doesn’t work for transmissions too, because...?

“So there’s no profit, no market, no business case.”

The first two are basically mutually contradictory in this context.

Xyl0c41n3 > Party-vi
12/11/2015 at 15:51

Kinja'd!!!

Your boy, BJR > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 16:09

Oh my god.

Listen, with all due respect, you are a stupid stupid asshole.

Jayhawk Jake > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 16:15

The automobile business is more heavily regulated than any other on Earth.

You cannot possibly be serious. It’s nowhere near as regulated as Aviation

You also continue to state conjecture as fact. You assume that the engineers knew it would cause ‘catastrophic failure’. Show me the test reports, the memos, the data, the evidence that shows criminal negligence.

I’m not saying for certain that they didn’t know it would lead to total electrical failure, but you also can’t say for certain that they did. I also want to see the documentation that shows the ignition switch was determined to cause, as you state, ‘catastrophic failure’.

I may be quick to displace blame, but you’re equally quick to try and place it. Shit happens. Bad products make it into the marketplace. Dangerous products are in our daily lives. Hell, how long did we use leaded gas and leaded paint before we figured that shit out? People knew for centuries that lead was poisonous but for decades it was in our homes and our cars. Should DuPont Chemical have been shut down long ago?

Calling GM a turd of a company over a poor decision like this is dumb, and calling for the shuttering of a profitable companies doors with 200,000+ employees over an unfortunate tragedy is pure insanity. Honestly if you look at the numbers I’d argue that not saving GM would have been a horrible financial move on the part of the US Treasury due to lost tax revenue and increased economic burden by displaced employees. They could have literally been a shit factory and it still would have been a smart move to keep them from going under.

You’re free to dislike GM, hell, boycott them if you want. Go down to your local Cadillac dealer and picket for all I care. Or maybe do something useful and write some letters to your congressmen and senators pushing for legal action against those involved. Trying to hammer your point home on Oppo isn’t going to accomplish anything.

As an engineer it hurts to think that you’d picture any of us as having malice towards human life. I dread the day one of my airplanes is involved in a fatal accident whether it’s through a mechanical fault or by pilot error. I don’t design vehicles just to make money, I design them for the human element, to move people safely and quickly from point A to B. I know many engineers, and I would be downright shocked to find a single engineer (or businessperson or manager or employee) at GM who displayed a disregard for human life anywhere in this process.

Jayhawk Jake > DoYouEvenShift
12/11/2015 at 16:34

Nah, they good. GM is a turd though

Groagun > Jayhawk Jake
12/11/2015 at 16:43

“I agree, sort of with Jake. I do not believe that anyone at GM designed the faulty ignition switch purposefully to kill: that quite frankly if just silly. The problem is however, in the automotive business design faults are regularly found during prototype and testing phases and corrected before production begins, usually.”

You read that, right? It was an engineer who first discovered and reported the problem. It was the engineers who tried to make things better.

If I need to be clearer with you I will: I am not and have not blamed the engineers!

Jayhawk Jake > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 17:18

But you want to put them on the street out of work

Groagun > Jayhawk Jake
12/11/2015 at 19:26

That may be the consequence but I’ll bet they can find new work with a better company. Maybe a better suggestion would to just fire all upper management and the executives. Can we compromise on that?

Jayhawk Jake > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 21:13

No. Not EVERY manager had a hand in this. So the Buick marketing chief should be kicked to the curb?

You’re delusional. You want to shut down the largest carmaker and you expect people to find a new job? People that did nothing wrong and had nothing to do with the issue?

Seriously man, you are completely out of touch with reality. You should take a step back and think about the stupid things coming out of your mouth

Groagun > Jayhawk Jake
12/11/2015 at 21:31

Well Jake I was trying to see some of your side and be a bit accommodating and polite but seriously now, fuck you!

If you’re the type of engineer and apparent troll you seem to be then don’t worry about it or the lives it took and the families it left behind. Don’t worry about the executives and managers who made this decision, knowing the part was defective and could cause “catastrophic failure” and stop worry about what I have to say.

I hope you and your family have a great holiday season and that nothing like this ever happens to you or them. Because if it does, justice will not be yours and well hey, it’s just life and why be bothered to do anything or hold anyone to their responsiblities.

Jayhawk Jake > Groagun
12/11/2015 at 22:29

You truly are insane.

I’m not the one saying ALL the executives should be thrown on the street.

I’m not saying there shouldn’t be repercussions, but you’re calling for sweeping penalties regardless of the truth or facts.

I’m not denying the tragedy, but have you never heard of innocent until proven guilty? You want to shut down a company, put 215,000 people out of work, just because a few of them might have been involved?

Just calm down and think about what you're saying for two minutes. It's ridiculous.